[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hey, I'm James from Content Snare and this is between two ledgers. Today's guest is Amy Holdsworth, who almost needs no introduction. Everyone I know seems to know who she is. She is quite the personality. She's at pretty much every event I ever go to in the accounting space. She's been at the forefront of accounting tech for a long time and helps people choose the right tech, put the right processes in place to run their accounting firms.
So we get into quite a lot today, including things like what ops even means because that was confusing to me. Why? Like being busy.
The exact.
Theory of constraints as applied to accounting. The exact checklist of things that, that you should not be doing.
The exact chip.
We get into lots of topics today, including things like what ops even is in an accounting firm. Theory of constraints as applied to accounting.
Exactly what accountants should not be doing, how and why you should let go of control of what everyone in your firm is doing, and a bunch more topics. And with that I bring you Amy Holdsworth.
Miss Amy Holdsworth. How are you doing?
[00:01:27] Speaker B: I'm very well, thank you. Mr. James Rose. How are you?
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Oh, doing pretty good. As I was just saying offline.
My one 18 month old has stopped waking up at 4:30 and now wakes up at 6, which has turned me into a superhuman the last week.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Oh my God, an extra 90 minutes of sleep. Who would have thought it?
[00:01:47] Speaker A: I was saying to someone the other day, it's like when before kids, if you have a bad night's sleep, you just feel like trash. After kids, you have a good night's sleep and you feel like a superhuman. It's a little bit reversed.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, go figure.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: So just a little bit about who you are. Look, I see you as someone who helps accounting firms just get the right tech and workflows in place. That's how I would describe you. How do you want to expand on that a little bit for people?
[00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I think interestingly enough that's probably the cookie. Well, that's the, that's the little, the thing that we dangle in front of people is the tech side of things. And you know, because ultimately when you are selling a service some you need to be pigeonholed. You need to be boxed into something that people can understand.
I know that that sounds awful, but it just is the way that the human brain works. So if you go accountant, people go, okay, they can get my tax and finances.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: I could riff, I could riff on this for an entire episode. So I feel you.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, right. So ours is originally when we first started doing this when I first started consulting, I was basically, I could have called myself a virtual practice manager. But the challenge with that is that most accounting practices don't understand what the role of a practice manager should actually be. There are so many varying breadths and ways to slice and dice that that it's very hard to actually go, you could be a virtual practice manager. Because if I don't know what a practice manager is, then what the hell is a virtual one, basically, right? So that got kiboshed and you know, then it was consulting around business processes and that kind of stuff and we were sort of fine. And then I had this wonderful idea. I was like, okay, I had in for my sins. I nearly started an accounting practice and I am delighted by the fact that I never proceeded with that little bit business venture. I think that it was the right move at the right time to not proceed. Anyway, at the time that we were doing it though, I went through this process of whiteboarding all the tech and at that point, that's when I had this little epiphany of I'm like, everybody needs to understand how the tech actually connects, which is what I was effectively doing. So created the app stack image, which is currently what we're very well known for. But realistically that is maybe 10% of what we actually do in relation to our projects and the service that we actually provide at Clarity Street. So yes, it is tech focused.
But if an accounting practice contacts us and you know, they need help with whatever they think that they're contacting us because they have a problem with their tech, which to a degree, obviously they do. But realistically that's about 10% of what their problems are.
The other 80 to 90% is people in process related. It's about who's doing what, how they're doing it, why they're doing it. Just mindset mentality. There's so much to unpack with that whole little topic.
So for the most part, we help accounting practices optimize their internal operation is the best way I can say it. Yes, with the tech focus, of course, but it's realistically being a virtual practice manager, I really do. But you can't sell that. You can't sell that one. You're going to sell it as a. You got to sell it as a tech implementation partner, basically.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: So now it's funny, like that intro has basically made me change where I want to go with this entire episode into that 90%. But I almost laughed out loud when you said, like, no one knows what a Practice manager is because I have a question.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Down.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: You did
[00:05:07] Speaker A: what? Well, it was slightly different. It's like what the is Ops? Because I in my research like you, you were ops essentially at a previous accounting firm, right?
[00:05:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: And it's funny because I've been talking to my like mastermind group that have other SaaS products and they have like an ops manager. The is an ops manager. So honestly I'm very happy to hear you say that. Like a lot of accounting firms don't know what OPS practice management is. They seem very related.
So maybe define it for me because even I'm the idiot on this one and I need to like, you know, set the stage here.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: So to answer your question, ops/practice management/admin. Anything that happens is in my opinion defined by anything that a qualified accountant can't. Sorry, shouldn't be doing, so shouldn't be doing. Right. So if you are a qualified accountant, my role as an administrator or an OPS person in practice, I can't do some of the things that you are qualified to do, which therefore means that everything else is OPS in my opinion.
So providing advice, doing a tax return, doing a set of financials, doing that advisory piece around the financial components. I can give broad spectrum business advice, but realistically I can't give the legal backed qualification guideline, actual tax accounting advice. I can't do that as an OPS person. Therefore in my opinion everything else falls under my realm and for it should.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: So it's kind of like just running the business, making sure things are happening.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: It is making things happen. Right? So it is managing workflow. You're effectively, I like to a good analogy is like a triage, like a triage nurse from an perspective is a good practice manager. You are spot firing, you are making sure people are doing the right things, going to the right places, making sure that things are getting seen, dealt with, etc. Etc. You are processing the work.
You're making sure that the work is getting done in a timely manner. So invoicing workflow, onboarding, processes, procedures, probably a little bit of HR depending on what size your business is. That's not always true and correct, but and then marketing client acquisition to a certain degree, whatever that process is.
That's basically, it's.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: It's basically anything that's not done by someone else really literally. It makes a lot of sense because like a lot of like assistant, like EA type people become ops people or the other even.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's how I started. Like I was originally an ea, I worked for a couple of hotels. I became an ea. I then worked for investment banking companies as one of the. One of the group team members, you know like the PA to the like one of the trading floors, that kind of stuff. And then I transitioned into the accounting space, etc. But I mean to that end like whilst we talked about what Clary street does and what we're known for, we've also created another service recently specifically dedicated to practice managers and ops people because there's just nothing in the industry, it's called Project 95 and there's nothing in the industry around supporting account, call it ops people in the industry. Everything out there is for accountants or business owners like CPA discussion groups or CI discussion groups. Monthly catch ups. They are all accountant related. All of the events, all of the apps, all the webinars, they're all directed realistically at accountants and there's nothing in the industry that is there supporting the operations people in practice, not to mention in practice you're also a minority within the practice because it's usually one or two admin, like in a team of call it 12 to 14 people, there's usually maybe two to three admin if that you're a minority. So you don't even have a majority of people to actually bounce ideas off and things like that. So it's basically small group coaching, health accountability for the ops people admin. So we're not taking over the role of like some of the other really good industry related coaches because they do, you know, their bread and butter is the business owners and the accountants. Ours is very much focused on the ops and support team who typically are getting told by those guys what to execute on and pull.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I really, really like this idea. My. So I'm in this group called dc. It's just like an online remote business type group. Anyway they I'm in their masterminds where they match you up with other business owners just to talk. They've started doing masterminds for ops people slash assistants and it's like the feedback has been incredible. So yeah, like I can see this being amazing. I haven't got my assistant in there yet, but hopefully soon.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: When you've been talking about this like ops foot as the work that you know an accountant is not doing in a firm, is it typical that the accountant accountant is like, are they the constrained resource? Like if you look at the process from start to finish, is the accountant the roadblock? Because they've got so much to do, like that's kind of holding up like because everything has to go through them. Right?
[00:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it depends on the structure.
So the firms that allow their accountants to do a lot of the non accounting work, like doing the quotes, like doing the invoices, like following up clients with queries and. Or requesting the relevant information to begin before they start the job, those kinds of things. There are some caveats to what I've just said. I don't want to blanket it, but for the firms that are allowing their accountants to do that level and that detailed block of work, they are the roadblock 100.
The firms that very much get the accountants to just do accounting work and then remove everything else from their plate are the ones that are really efficient. But the challenge with that though is, you know, this, this probably sounds a little bit harsh, but in some aspects the accountant is like the brickies labourer.
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Okay, fair.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: I know that sounds a bit brutal. Like you need them to do the work, you need them to process the work and just get the shit done. Just do the accounting work. Don't flop around with everything else. And this is in the more. Sorry, for context, I'm talking in the more compliance focused firms, the firms that do more heavy advisory stuff. Yes, there is gray area in this, but the real compliance focused firms just do the work, just get the accounting work done. There is no need for you to do an invoice, there's no need for you to. You can review stuff if you need to, but ultimately you have people there that can actually do that for you. And if you just let the reins go a little and empower those team members to do it, you would find that you could actually process a lot more work and get through that client work so much quicker as a generalization. So I think that there is a shortage of accountants in the industry. But what I think the shortage is, and this is pretty people have different opinions on this. My feeling is that the shortage is clear client facing accountants, not necessarily backend processing accountants. There's still probably a shortage of them too. But I think the industry is short on client focused accountants. And I had this conversation yesterday. I was, I happened to be at the tennis, it was lovely.
Anyway, I was with, I was with the mob crew actually and it was a really good chat. And I was just talking about the fact that there is such a stereotype still in the industry about what being an accountant actually is. And it's like if you think about the trajectory of if you got your accounting degree, where that could actually take you, it's not just necessarily sitting there crunching numbers like it's business conversations. You could go into tech, you could go into services like what we provide. You know what I mean? Like, there's such a broad. Like, getting an accounting degree kind of almost guarantees you that you'll have work, or it should until the dawn of time, until you no longer need a job, because there's so many different avenues that you can take that little qualification in. And it's like, why aren't we having those conversations with Year 10 students when they have to have when they do their careers day and they go, what do I want to do? Because there's such a stereotype still, in my opinion, that, oh, accounting means you're doing a P and L and you're doing figures and you're doing a tax return and that kind of stuff. Because that's what it was when I was in school. In hindsight, I'm like, wish I had done it. But at the time, I was like, I don't want to know accounting.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: That's.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: That sounds boring, man. Now. Hilarious. Love what I do. Consult the accounting industry. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny.
I got stories on there, too, but we. We don't have time for those. But it just made me think a little bit about what you were saying there.
Mutual friend of ours, Mr. Andrew Vanderbeek.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: Seems to be trying to do his part to make accounting cool among younger people, which is really cool. Yeah, I think you're right.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: There are. And there are definitely people out there. And I love, like, I know of, like, he's one of them. And I know that there are heaps of them out there that are trying that, and I think it's great. But, you know, it would be amazing if there was more done with that. And I think that, like, speaking to the guys at my. They're like, yeah, we. We do a bit with universities. And I'm like, well, that's great. I think that's too late.
I think you guys need to do it. As I said, Year 10 Careers Day, when you have to sit there and choose your. Choose your, you know, your subjects for your last two years at school, that's
[00:14:23] Speaker A: when you've already chosen. You've already.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: Correct. That's what I mean. You've already chosen.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So I really want to dive in on something you mentioned a while ago where talk about accountants, you know, them being the bottleneck when they are doing all the other work, because it reminded me a lot of a podcast I've been listening to or listened to recently and dove into this topic about theory of constraints. And this dates back to like manufacturing stuff. I can't remember the original author, but like, the really short version is like, you've got to imagine like a machine on your factory floor that makes widgets.
But like you could. Your entire factory can only go as fast as the widget making machine.
And so it's almost. That is the constraint. Once you've identified the constraint in the business, like, optimizing everything else around, around that constraint should be your like entire goal. So that they are operating at peak, you know, they're not touching anything before it arrives. It makes a nice neat pile of the thing that's got to get processed into the widget. So as soon as that machine is finished, it picks up the next widget and starts doing, making it, whatever. And then as soon as it's out, everything else is taken care of. Right. So is that. I don't know. I'm just applying something I thought I've been learning a lot about recently. Is that kind of the goal here to make the, like, optimize everything around those accountants?
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Yes, is the short answer.
Because there's no reason why it shouldn't be. I think that's the bigger thing, right? So I think that there is a very large proportion of accounting practices out there that also have far too many clients on their books as well, and that they aren't able to provide that additional depth of service that they, most of them seek. I think there was a stat done recently where like 77% of accountants wish that they could be doing more, more than just your standard compliance work, which is great, but how do you do that? The only way that you can do that is to remove the bottleneck around the compliance work, which allows you the time to obviously execute the additional deeper work that you're actually seeking to do. So, yes, get everything around that person or those people within the business. It can only provide that, optimize.
But the issue that you have there is that you have egos, plain and simple. I literally just had a conversation with a new client of ours where I was like, right, you're a firm that is currently growing via acquisition. You've just acquired a couple of firms, blah, blah, blah. There's still firms that are coming in. There's another one that's coming in in a couple of months, that kind of thing. And this is wonderful, and this is fabulous. But the aim of the game here is to get some consistency across your processes and procedures. So it's not the accounting business Number one versus Accounting Business number two versus Accounting Business number three way.
And it's not Amy's way in Accounting Business one or Jane is. In Accounting Business two's way it is, what is the outlook for ABC Accounting? Who is the overall business structure? What is the ABC accounting way of doing things?
And that requires everybody to park your egos at the door because you need to consider and think of the greater good of the business and how everybody's actions will impact each other's. Not just in your little role that you fulfill in every role that is fulfilled from a business perspective, but then not only so you can process the work, but so that the output for your clients is as efficient and as professional as possible.
So the only way that that happens, though, is that all of you park your egos at the door and you put a new lens on and instead of going, yeah, but when I do it like this, I think it's the better way of doing it. Sure, it probably is.
But have you considered that if your way is better, that it's impacting this one, this on this one, this and this one? It might be quicker for you personally to do that thing, but as a generalization, it's probably not.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: So it's very mind blowing to me because. Because I don't know, maybe my mind's in the wrong spot here, but when I think of, like, all the work that an accountant, quote, unquote, shouldn't be doing, it's, for lack of a better word, shit work. Like chasing people up for stuff and emailing clients that they haven't, you know, haven't given them stuff yet or.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: But why is the accountant doing that?
[00:18:28] Speaker A: Oh, I know why. But why are they.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Why are they wanting to do that?
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Yes, why is the ego.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Why are they wanting to do that? Yeah, because here's the. I love having this conversation with you because busy dictates I'm important.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Oh, shit, okay, Yeah, I can see that.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Yeah. As opposed to I am producing quality and I'm actually getting the thing done. Like, you think about it, right? It's almost like a badge of honor when somebody says, so how's Singh? Oh, so busy. I'm so busy. I'm so busy. Doing what?
And why is that a badge of honor? Just because you're busy doesn't mean that you're productive, doesn't mean that you're financially stable, doesn't mean that you're actually profitable as a business.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: You could be busy doing stupid shit.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: That's my point, Right? You can be busy doing Stupid shit. So why is it a badge of honor to say that you're busy? Isn't it a better thing to go? I'm actually really. I've got things that are actually quite well coordinated at the moment. Workflow is going really well. I've got the time to spend on the client work that I really want to spend the time on. I'm in a really good space right now. How much better does that sound?
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Oh, mate. Yeah, but no, no, because our egos can't let us. It's funny. It's because I am. I'm very aware of this now, right? Like, that whole. I've written a few posts about this whole. Like.
Like being busy just for the sake of it, right? Like. And I try to catch myself, you know, so, like, someone will say how things. I'm like, oh, like, crazy or busy or whatever. Like, well, crazy, I think. I don't know. I can use that in different ways. But, like, when I say I'm busy, I'm like, I. I immediately go like, oh, like, that's actually a bad thing. How can I get less busy? You know? Like, I. That's where my brain goes every time I want to tell someone I'm busy.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Now I'm having this issue this week. I'm like, I still haven't done my bloody timesheets. I stupidly introduced timesheets. Six months, actually, to be honest with you, it was one of the best things that we did for our business. So I say stupidly, I'm like, it was one of the best things that we did for our business from a project perspective, just so we clear. Anyway, so we've got our. We've got our strategy day tomorrow, and we've got our monthly reporting and that kind of thing. And that requires me to have done my timesheets. And I'm like, I only had a week, two or two of them to do. Why haven't I been able to do them? But that freaks me out as well. Cause I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so busy. And then I'm like, stop it. You are disorganized.
That is all it is. You are not busy. You are just currently disorganized because you have chosen to go and have wonderful other experiences that have taken up elements of time that you hadn't anticipated. And that's fine, but don't turn around and go, I'm so busy. No, actually, I'm just disorganized. And I chose to do other shit over this that I probably should have. Done instead.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: Prioritization, that's all it is.
And I mean, and there is like you said ego before. There is like it when just doing work makes you feel like you progressing
[00:21:09] Speaker B: things, but it does, it gives you purpose. So there's nothing wrong with ego. Like ego is a good and bad thing. Like it's a double edged sword. I say it, you know, it's sort of a negative connotation in this conversation. But there's really good benefits to having an ego. So please don't misinterpret that one. It's just like it's that double edge sort of where it goes. But yeah, sometimes you do. I think back to your original point. It comes back to everybody thinking more holistically about the business that they work in rather than being very much, you know, like single focus. This is all about me basically.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: So I want to kind of switch gears into some tactical stuff. Hopefully we've made people go like, yeah, okay, I get it. I need to get some shit off either my plate or my accountant's plates. Yeah, what are some like examples here? Let's start with like low hanging fruit. Or we can do this chronologically through the work process and go like what? Where are the places that you see people screwing this up the most and, and getting their accounts to do things that they shouldn't be doing.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Okay, so I have a lovely little slide deck which no one can see right now. But I'm not going to obviously show that here. The bits that they are buggering up like no end.
If there is an accountant doing an invoice. Stop it right now.
Accountants should never be doing invoicing.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: But it only takes a few minutes.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Doesn't matter, don't care.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:22:33] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You can, if you really feel the need to review it, you should not be preparing it.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Everything only takes a few minutes, by the way. And so if you're doing a hundred things, only take a few minutes, suddenly there's no fucking day left, is there?
[00:22:51] Speaker B: Requesting work, managing workflow.
So I believe that the accountants should review what work they're planning to do in the month that they're doing the work. That kind of thing. Or in advance. Our recommendation six weeks in advance.
But requesting that work, Calling that work in. No, no, not you. That's either an app or that's a human being, which is not an account. Requesting that information.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Okay, so requesting information or requesting work, or is it the same thing?
[00:23:18] Speaker B: Both. Requesting information, requesting work.
I will draw. I'm talking about at the Beginning of the job. I'm not talking about queries like mid job queries. Mid job is a contentious issue and I'm happy to concede on that one a little bit. All right, but so requesting the information to begin with before you even get the job, like, you know, proactively contacting the client to request that information.
Yeah, that is not accountant, that is admin.
Following up and chasing till the work arrives in the office.
Admin, not accountant.
Scoping the work, definitely accountant.
If anything's missing, back to admin.
Preparing the fee proposal, sending the fee proposal, setting up the job, all of that kind of stuff.
Not an accountant.
Admin very much admin.
Doing the work.
Accountant, you can do the work, you can do the tax return, you can do the financials, you can give the advice, you can have a client meeting, you can call the client if you have some queries and. Or if you do get halfway through the job and you know, when you get to query stage, there's a list of queries.
You can choose whether it is you, the accountant, sending out that list of queries to client, to the client, whether that's via email, not recommended, whether that's via something like obviously content Snare, because that's much more recommended then do that. But otherwise that should be stemmed from and include your admin team member. So compiling the original list accountant, but the follow up and the chasing of getting the answers to that administrator. At least if you're sending an email, the admin team member should be cc'd in so that when the client only comes back and responds to three of the 20 questions, they can chase the client for that.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: I can totally see why this one's a gray area though. Right.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: Because sometimes that one is great.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Not even sure if the admin might not be sure if it. But if everyone's got access to the same system, obviously plugging content snare, you've got the accountant and the admin are able to communicate with each other in there. It doesn't have to be content snare. It could be as long as it's multiple people, one access point for the client. So they're not talking to three different people.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: And. But then everyone can collaborate on whether it's the right information on the accounting firm end.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah, correct. The work getting reviewed, obviously that's accountant land. Sure. At the end of the job, compiling it, as in getting all the financials, the tax return, putting the pack together, PDF ing it, putting in a little sign here, bits and pieces, all the rest, that kind of stuff. Not accountant admin operations. That's, you know, you're preparing your docs for signing. Basically sending out an invoice, sending the documents for signing if you need to prepare an invoice. Not accountant. Like, if you're doing invoicing at the end of the job, my preference is to do it at the beginning and to take payment at the beginning. But not all firms have adopted that and. Or they have challenges with that potentially. But if you are doing an invoice at the end, you should not be preparing it. That should be an admin team member preparing it for your review.
Hitting the send button to the client.
That's what I see all the time. I'm like, why? Why do you feel so important and empowered that you. That it has to come from you?
Why can't it come from an admin team member with UCC'd in on it? So that the client clearly knows that you've been included in it. But this is just the final dot I's crossed. T's the amount of time that accountants spend reformatting the wording of an invoice. Oh, my God, that blows my mind.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: Oh, man.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Stop it. Your clients don't care if a client has ever come to you and said, I'm not paying your invoice because the layout and the style of font and the position of your logo is not to my liking.
Sure.
But I can call bullshit on that one. I guarantee you, no client has ever done that. They might not pay your invoice because it's too much or too, you know, or because the wording is incorrect based on what you've done. But it's not due to the formatting, basically, so. And then the only other thing. What else is there? The lodgements.
Again, slightly contentious. Whether you actually hit the lodge button or not.
Do you need to. If you've signed off on it, basically. That is again, slightly. There's a bit of a grey one as to who should be doing that and who shouldn't be. People have different opinions on that one. I am of the opinion that you don't necessarily. Like an admin person could hit that button once it's all been signed, sealed and delivered. Don't get me wrong. Whip Wash up at the end. Admin closing off the job admin. Oh, if an accountant's actually creating and setting up a job. Oh, hard. No. Remove that access instantaneously.
Accountants should not be allowed to set up jobs ever.
Sorry, I'm being very brutal and blunt here.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: No, honest to God, I Was just laughing to myself there because I think in that entire start to finish process you said two parts of the job that weren't definitively not accountant or maybe like, sorry, the actual work and then two parts that weren't. Yeah, you know, gray area.
[00:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Query.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah. So you've basically just given people. This is like such gold. So you've just given people a checklist of like, here are the things to get someone else to do in your business, start to finish. Like I think we, we're going to have to turn that into a bloody checklist or resource or something because like, like if I was an accountant being like, you know, our accountants are too overloaded or I'm too overloaded and so where do I start? Like top of that list and get, get admin in place because, you know, so obviously some of these are more technical than others. Some of these things are super low hanging fruit, you know that like you don't need a lot of training to be able to work out. And then other stuff they might need to understand business a bit more like. So maybe those come later if you don't have time to do it now. But like there were so many on that list that were like anyone could do that. Like setting up a job, sending an invoice.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: Yeah, like start empowering your, your admin team to understand the. The what worthless crisis. So if you're asking if you've got a list of queries that you want your client to answer and, or just you're requesting relevant information, empower your admin team and actually teach them what, what you're looking for. They don't have to do the work. But that means that if they can eyeball it when the work comes back in. That saved you 10 minutes to go. Yeah, all the bits are there. You can actually check it. It's just, yeah, it's a, it's a very interesting one that I, it still baffles me and I think, I think a lot of it comes from this idea of, I think it's a traditional mindset that comes from the idea of I was remunerated on my chargeables and how much I used to bill out from my client perspective as in the expectation that, you know, that third, third scenario is that I, you know, that's how I was remunerated. Which meant that the only way that I could do that was to have a client base and I could control that client base and that list of clients, which meant that I could charge accordingly, which meant that I would reach my revenue Targets.
Sorry. But in my opinion these days, it's like, that's not the way that the world works these days. It's an old mindset. Because what that dictates is the longer you take to do a job, sure, you might be able to charge more, but is that an efficient way of doing business? No. Not to mention that client isn't yours.
That client is a client of the accounting practice that you work with or work for. You might hold the closest relationship with that client, but they aren't your client.
They are engaged with the accounting practice that you are employed by, plain and simple. And I think accountants forget that sometimes as well, is that they feel the need to control that relationship to that nth degree. But I do think that it is changing. Don't get me wrong, like, I'm talking real traditional mindsets. The way of the world is changing, but I think that's where it's kind of stemmed from originally.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: I get, like. It is hard to give up this control, like, if. Because it's from the entrepreneurial side too. This is just the classic mistake of thinking they have to do everything.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Because they're the only person that can do anything good enough. You know, and this has been a slow journey for me, you know, like, going like you said, empowering people to do stuff. I think it's really easy to go when someone's working with you, for you, whatever you want to check all their stuff. And then that. That creates this, like, loop of them always coming to you to get everything checked. And I realized this, like, really badly myself now. Whereas, like, today I've hit this, like, breaking point in the last couple of weeks where I'm. Here we go. Busy. Too busy.
Overwhelmed. Overwhelmed was the word I actually use. I've just got too much going on.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: And it's not necessarily busy. It's all too much vying for my attention. And, like, really quickly, I've gone from someone who I used to always check their work. They came to me with something today, literally today, and I was like, what? Just do it. I don't fucking care. You know, And. But I was like, I have made this happen by, you know, always wanting stuff and micro changing little bits here and there. It's like, no, no, no, no. You just go and fucking do it. And that's. You're gonna have to do that a few times to make that the culture, so to speak. But, yeah, it's a big mental shift for me. It's hard to let go of.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: Oh, it is. I'm the Exact same as you. Like, it's. You know, I'm a perfectionist just as much as the next person is. But I've also. I heard something a few years ago, which was somebody turned around and said, if you were ever trying to empower people the best, like, you could turn around and go, look, that's probably not the way that I would have approached it, but, you know, I'm really glad that you got the outcome that you wanted.
And that's you having to take a moment and go, oh, my God, that really hurts my toddler. Why do you do that?
But did that get the outcome that we wanted? Yeah, like, how did you do it that way? And unless it was a really inefficient way or blah, blah, blah. But, like, if it's. If the desired outcome is achieved, then that's all you're kind of looking for. It's really hard, though, because ultimately, especially as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, it's your business, baby. It's a reflection of you, your. Your values and everything that you stand for. So I do get. I appreciate that, like, no end. But I'm the same as you, James. It's just. You just get to a point where you're just like, I don't care.
I'll rephrase it. I care. But as in, I. I do you. Are you confident? Like, would you. If this was your business, would you send it out? Yes. Great, do it. Do I need to? Like, I've already checked the 20. If you've already checked it 20 times before, is there anything that you think I should review? And sometimes, like, I have this conversation with one of my team members who is more than capable. Right. And then every now and again, he'll be like, I just need you to sanity check this one for me. So I'm like, all right, no problems. We'll have a chat and we'll look at it. But for the most part, I'm like, dude, I trust you. I don't need this conversation.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: There's. Yeah. So good. There's another little framework. I don't know if it's Dan Martell's or not, but it comes from his virtual assistant book. But the 1:3.1 framework. And I feel like this is a solution but also an empowerment thing at the same time is going, like, when you come to me with a problem, I want you to come with one problem, three solutions, and then your recommended solution from.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And because then, obviously, it's easy for you to go, yeah, cool, I agree with that. Or, you know, maybe you can push back on it, but it's encouraged to actually solve it and come up with the thing before coming to you.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: Which, yep, like obviously that is a game changer. I agree. Don't come to me with a problem without you coming to me with a suggested solution.
100 agree with that, Amy.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: I had no idea where this conversation was going to go. I actually really. All I had in my mind when we were going to do this was the pink glasses you show up with. And I was like, I know. I don't know where mine are. The kids have buried them somewhere.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: There we go.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: I wish we did this whole podcast with both of. By both of us wearing the think glasses, but I just didn't know they're in the. We are renovating upstairs and we've stripped back the kids toys so they're probably in that pile that are inaccessible pile right now.
[00:34:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:58] Speaker A: Damn it.
Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you. This has been absolute full of gold. We didn't get into any super fun stuff. Maybe you'll have to come back another time. Like I had notes, man. I have lots of.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: I know one of the questions you asked, you're like, what? Have you ever thought too much? I'm like, oh my God, I'm a woman. Haven't I overthought James, how deep do you want me to go here?
[00:35:20] Speaker A: I did it. I do love your answers to the pre work. There is one thing I actually now this could have been AI lying to me.
A really good analogy. I thought it found that apparently you had said somewhere before was you don't pay for a flight when you land.
Is that you?
[00:35:37] Speaker B: That is me.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: It's in relation to upfront pricing or upfront payment. Actually, it's actually more in relation to upfront payment. And I use that analogy quite a bit, which is when you book a flight online, do you get to pay for that flight when you get to the destination?
No is the answer to that. Right. You have to pay for it then and there when you accept and want to book that flight.
And the analogy is because accountants will throw back, but you know, we're providing a service. I'm like, well, what do you think an airline's doing? They are literally moving you from point A to point B. That's all they're doing. They're not even giving you anything. Qantas does still. Sorry. And international flights do still. But you know, I mean, like they're not actually even doing anything for you. They are literally moving from point A to point B, and you have to pay before you actually get on that flight. So why don't you have to pay before you start the work or do your accounting work? And then there's that whole, yeah, but you know, what if we get halfway through the job and you know, there's queries and you know, it blows out if they've already paper. And I'm like, well, what do you do now? Do you pick up the phone and you call your client if you get halfway through, through the job? And it's like, hey, you didn't tell me about those 10 extra rental properties. Because if you don't, that's incredibly shitty service. Because if you just do the work and then whack them with instead of a, you know, the last five years it's been a thousand dollars to do their work and all of a sudden it's a three grand bill. If you just do that, that is a shitty client experience. And you, you know, that's, that's bad professional services.
So you should be having that conversation regardless. And it's no different if you've provided a quote and they pay for it up front. It was a thousand dollars to get halfway through. Like, oh, right, hang on, red flags. This is going to be more. You should be picking up the phone and having that conversation and then you just charge them again.
[00:37:18] Speaker A: I mean, this is pretty standard stuff.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: I know, right?
[00:37:21] Speaker A: Doing, doing a rent. I know a lot of people don't do it this way, but like, like I said, we're doing a Renault right now.
There's lots going on here. They want money. Some money up front and some money in the middle and some money at the end. Correct. And then I, they find something when they rip the walls off and go, shit, we didn't have that in the quote. Now it's a variation. This is like standard stuff.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: Literally, it's standard stuff. It's like, why, why do I. Sorry. My other one is. The greatest irony in the industry is the lack of accountability for accountants.
[00:37:51] Speaker A: Oh, damn.
[00:37:52] Speaker B: I know that that's brutal. I'm sorry to say, but the inability or the avoidance for accountants to want to be held accountable is. That's why I'm saying it is a massive irony in the industry. You're accountants. Be accountable. Why don't you want to be held to account? I mean, not most human beings. Don't, don't get me wrong. But it's like if I say a price and I say a thing, then I don't know, how am I Going to, I don't know how to go back and actually, you know, not, you know, go against what I said originally. It's just, just have a courageous conversation.
[00:38:23] Speaker A: That's the lack of client facing accountants that you talked about. That is correct. Like I come from the engineering world, right. And accountants and engineers, like if you go, if you buy into like the disk profiling stuff, you know, we're all high C types and so it's pretty hard. You know, those people generally don't want confrontation, don't want to talk to people.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: But yeah, it doesn't have to be confrontation.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: Well, people see it as that.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: Correct. But it can be presented in a way of look, there are these extra 10 rental properties. Do you just want me to do your tax work on this one that you told me about? Would you like me to do the work on these extra 10? But there is an additional fee. This is what it's going to be. Your choice.
I don't have to do that. You know what I mean? Like it's just all the way. It's all the way that you position.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: Good angle.
Amy. Again, so much gold. I love also that your newsletter is called Nuggets. There's nuggets of gold, isn't it? Or Friday or something like that. So I didn't, did not mean to put gold in there intentionally.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: No. Quick tips and Snippets of Gold is our weekly newsletter.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: Where can people go to get that?
[00:39:24] Speaker B: You can go to www.claritystreet.com and there's a little newsletter button that you can sign up to. We do a monthly and then we do a weekly. Just as I said, quick tip, two little quick videos. And that just shows you a bit of insight around a process, a procedure, something cool that's happening with tech, that kind of thing.
[00:39:41] Speaker A: Awesome. And of course you've got your app stack, which is very, very popular.
[00:39:46] Speaker B: Oh. Which is getting a. It's getting a facelift at the moment.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Oh, damn. Okay.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: So there's not going to be major differences, but there's a few apps that are, you know, a few ons, a few offers, a few like just. Yeah, there's just, there's a bit, there's a bit of movement as the tech landscape evolves. So too must the app stack image.
So yes, watch this space will be out very soon.
[00:40:07] Speaker A:
[email protected] yeah. So. And I'm sure people can see us on a webinar. I think we're going to do one sometime soon.
[00:40:16] Speaker B: Yay.
And. Or at events anytime soon. We're around.
[00:40:21] Speaker A: Yeah, we're around.
Amy, again, thank you so much. This has just been an absolute knowledge bomb that I think has helped me as well as hopefully our audience.
[00:40:32] Speaker B: My pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me on, James. It's been been such a joy to chat to you as always. Thanks, buddy.
